Monday, August 28, 2006

Us vs Them

The atheist turned Christian apologist C.S. Lewis said there’s no such thing as a person who does bad things for the sake of doing bad things, only people who go about achieving good goals the wrong way. If you think about it, it’s true: at the heart of every crime is the desire to achieve or acquire something positive: security, self esteem, wealth, etc.

One of the fundamental problems with “The War on Terror” is that its architects refuse to acknowledge what it is our adversaries actually want. Our government simplifies the issues to a deliberately vague, nonsensical allegation that “they” hate freedom. But no one hates freedom. In fact, shouldn’t it strike Americans as ironic, if not downright hypocritical, that we are over there with our military attempting to force people into a way of life and government that they don’t desire? Whose freedom is really being compromised here?

True, fundamentalist Islam's vision of the ideal society doesn’t match up with Western principles; but why does it have to? Why are we so certain that our values are universal? Why are we so certain that our ways are better for a culture that’s so different?

These are the questions that Bush & Co. either won’t answer or refuse even to consider. Pondering this reality would force them to take into consideration the diversity and complexity of a region we have an unfortunate tendency to lump together under the heading “The Middle East,” as if our allies, the repressive, fundamentalist monarchy of Saudi Arabia, have much in common with our foes, like the secular, relatively progressive democracy of Iran.

And it’s not just “foes” and “allies,” as if we’re schoolkids playing cops and robbers in the backyard; Bush has neatly divided the middle east into pro-democracy and terrorist factions; but our “pro-democracy” fledgling Iraqi government slammed Israel and loudly praised Hezbollah; Hezbollah itself, while participating in terrorist activities, is also a political organization that holds a significant minority of seats in Lebanon’s secular parliament, and is also a highly organized and effective humanitarian group. Terrorist group Hamas won democratic elections in Palestine. Meantime, the terrorists inside Iraq aren’t really “anti-democracy” so much as they are “anti-each-other,” Sunnis and Shiites battling each other in the streets in order to wrest control of the new government. Bush points proudly to the elections in Iraq as evidence that Iraqis want democracy; perhaps, but they don’t want unity. Shiites voted for Shiites, Sunnis voted for Sunnis, and the Kurds voted to separate.

Nuanced, reality-based understanding would completely undo Bush’s Manichaean “Us/Them” theory of global politics.

The way through this mess is to recognize, as Lewis pointed out, that everyone involved ultimately is in pursuit of something good, something positive: in this case, freedom. Now, we don’t and probably won’t agree on the details, but understanding that at a fundamental level we both want the same thing, we ought to be able to find peaceful, constructive ways forward.

As long as the President continues to insist that “we” are good, and therefore everything we want and do is good, and “they” are bad and everything they want and do is bad, we will continue to have slaughter.

There is no “them.” There is only us.

29 comments:

Matthew said...

Wow, Andy. You really are an excellent writer and thinker.

This is a great piece of salient opinion.

Bravo!

Trickish Knave said...

"True, fundamentalist Islam's vision of the ideal society doesn’t match up with Western principles; but why does it have to?"

It doesn't. However, there is a big difference in our societies that admonishes each of us to pursue what we think is right.

American treasure freedom and democracy as do most civilized countries. People flock my the millions to this country because it has more to offer than most places on earth.

Islam directs thier believers to kill those who are not part of the faith. Islam brainwashes at an early age to specifically hate a group of people and to kill that same group of people even if it means the sacrifice of its own believers.

People do want democracy. People do not want to live in fear of a brutal and despotic leader who does as he pleases with this citizens- rape, murder, torture- and will look to nations who can drive that evil out of their country.

There is a distinct 'us' and 'them' and it is the prevailant kum-baya spirit that will end up being the piercing arrow through America's temple.

But no one hates freedom

Correct, sir, but our idea of freedom and Islam's idea of freedom are two diferent concepts. They hate American freedom and although it does bring many societal ills- freedom to get an abortion, freedom to wear thong bikinis, freedom to wear whatever we want, freedom to not treat our women like shit- it is this type of freedom that we fought for so long ago.

Muslims will choose Sharia law over our democratic process everytime if given the opportunity. Keep watching Europe and you will see how the 'us' versus 'them' battle plays out.

Sadly, your ideology will eventually prevail in the United States because of the forced political correctness and the indirect willingness to help the terrorists with their jihad.

I would venture to say that even if we poulled out of Israel, which is the main beef the Islamo-asswipes have with us, they would continue to spread their disease to other parts of the world.

So, yes, by all means, keep blaming Bush for the Middle East problems and watch them magically disappear when/if? the democrats win in November.

It's Islam, dude. Islam is the problem.

tully said...

"that we are over there with our military attempting to force people into a way of life and government that they don’t desire?"

Andy- Our way of life which we push on these people is one of FREEDOM! Whether it's capitalism or democracy, our way of life which fundamentalist muslims disagree with is one of freedom- sometimes freedom in excess.

Of course they have their noble values, but don't try to tell me that the fundamentalist muslims value freedom.

Also don't tell me that we are depriving them of freedom (presumably the freedom to deny freedom) by encouraging freedom in Iraq (the majority has embraced it). I understand what you're saying, but it's WRONG! Before we entered Iraq, they did NOT have freedom. Now, they do. You can say all you want about whether it was a good idea to go to war, but don't try to rewrite history.

This is a war between differing value systems. They value virtue and honor- we value freedom, virtue and honor (in that order).

Our moral judgement of despots relies upon the understanding that liberty is an inalienable right just like life. You may not like the term Islamofascist for understandable reasons, but labeling them as radical Islamic despots, these are not freedom lovers. They do deprive their people of liberty.

I also fail to understand why it is that when a group of despots declares war on the US and much of the Western World, it is wrong to aknowledge them. Would you suggest to the elephant who is constantly bothered with savages' spears that he ignore the savages and only dodge the spears to the best of his ability? Would you blame him for being simplistic in saying that the conflict is one of savages against him?

tully said...

BTW: As Trickish Knave's comment is much less polarizing than mine, I ask you to answer his first and more prominently. I am a big Aloha Dump fan.

Will said...

I've been reading a little Buckminster Fuller. I think one point he made is relevant here. He said, basically, if you remove all politicians and political ideology from the planet, but leave all the machinery and infrastructure of society, life will go on, and perhaps people will even prosper more than they have been. On the other hand, if you leave the politicians and take the machinery, billions will die instantly.

In this sense, it is only Us vs. Them if we let it be. Il Bushe tells us that it is us vs. them - and bin Laden tells them that it is them vs. us. But what it comes down to is people dying, and people trying to be safe.

Is our so called war on terror removing the causes of terror or allowing it to flourish? What are the conditions that allow Hamas to flourish in Palestine, and Hezbollah to flourish in Lebanon? What about the Taliban in Afghanistan? If enough people are desperate enough, they will support the most violent and extreme groups - and that is how violent and extreme groups win guerilla wars. Mao or Uncle Ho Chi Minh, I forget which one, said that the people are the sea in which the guerilla swims. Take away the sea, and the fish drowns.

Now, invading Iraq and killing 30,000 civilians (probably more) seems to me a backasswards way to win the war on terror.

There will always be extremists, whatever the religion. There are plenty of Christians who want to stone adulterers and homosexuals. They just aren't in power in the US.

The vast majority of human beings just want to be left alone, to live and let live. But in extreme situations, they will turn to extreme ideologies. As Andy points out, the sea of people in which Hezbollah swims don't want an evil outcome. They want freedom and security. Unfortunately, the actions of Israel and the United States have convinced enough people that Hezbollah's way is the only way for them to have freedom and security. Likewise, the Israelis who supported the bombing of Lebanon didn't support it because they wanted little children to die. They supported it because they wanted freedom.

Us vs. them thinking just encourages the cycle of violence.

LC, your comment reminds me of what the officer said in Vietnam: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

tully said...

Um, thanks FG?

Will said...

LC,

Anytime dude.

Also, I wrote "billions will die instantly" and although I know that most people will read and understand what I meant, I offer a correction anyway: "billions will die in a short time."

DJRainDog said...

l-c: Once again, since you're obviously up in the cheap seats: The Iraqi people do not have freedom; they have OCCUPATION BY A FOREIGN MILITARY FORCE (which is trying to force its culturally unnatural way of life on them). And I don't think FG's comparison of your comment is a particularly flattering one, in case you somehow missed that. It amounts to the same logic that causes women who believe that they are evil and their children will be corrupted by them to drown said children in a bathtub in order to free them to be with Jesus.

Trickish Knave said...

You make great points FG. I read Michael J. Totten's blog and he had a conversation with a Lebanese man and his brother.

"Making peace between states is not the same as making peace between people"

Elizabeth said...

LC, you can't push or force freedom. It's a contradiction.

Gino said...

did you call the govt of iran secular and relatively progressive?

or was this an attempt to make a point?

as for those who consider islam to be some big violent way of thinking:
if that were the case, i would have been dead a long time ago, being as i live among a healthy population of muslims.

islam is a very diverse faith, with no central authority to speak for it. islam, in short, is properly practiced according to the proper heart of the adherant.
and this term:"proper" is open to interpretation to anybody who seeks to be proper.

Andy said...

did you call the govt of iran secular and relatively progressive?

Well, perhaps not in comparison with the California legislature, no, but compared to Saudi Arabia? Absolutely.

Andy said...

It amounts to the same logic that causes women who believe that they are evil and their children will be corrupted by them to drown said children in a bathtub in order to free them to be with Jesus.

Not quite. The logic is more like, your parents are evil so we killed your children to free them.

Gino said...

yes, saudi is more socially repressive, but with that exception, iran is the most repressive of muslim nations

egypt,syria,jordan,iraq(under sadam), UAE, etc... are all fairly secular.

Trickish Knave said...

Gino, there are plenty of Muslims who refrain from lopping the heads off of us infidels. But the Koran is explicit in what the Muslim should do to the infidels- get them to convert, as did the two Fox news reporters, and if they don't do that then kill them.

Perhaps you haven't been tolerantly beheaded because you haven't been given the choice to convert?

I don't know what keeps the other Muslims in check, do they ignore that part of the Koran? And if so how devout are they?

They claim to be a religion of peace but everything points to the contrary. Every civilization they have taken over has collapsed when Islam was forced upon it.

tully said...

We are not forcing freedom on anyone. We are pushing for freedom in Iraq, but there was no gun to anyone's head saying "vote for the candidate of your choosing or die". We encouraged freedom and set up an apparatus for freedom. For that, no matter what may have gone wrong in the process, I am proud of my troops, my President, and most of all my nation.

Andy said...

TK: are you really in a position to be explaining Islamic theology? How much of the Koran are you familiar with?

As a Christian, I am deeply ashamed of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Christ. The sad truth is that all religions at times get perverted by people who twist them to further their own personal agendas.

George W. Bush is a classic example.

tully said...

Andy: When did George W. Bush twist Christianity to his own agenda.

Gino said...

Ticklish Knave:
not sure what you consider devout, but many of those i know are pretty strictly observant..i've been told, by them, that koran needs to be taken in historical perspective, and within its context.

would you see it as a proper jew thing to entice conversion to judaism, and then launch a military attack on your new 'brothers' while all the men were still suffering the effects of thier circumcision? see genesis.

mainstream islam today seeks to convert the world through acts of rightousness. as my friend says, the better he is in islam, the more likely i will want that for myself.

Anonymous said...

Andy: rock, rock on.

--------

I want to inject here a related piece of realism (not kidding) LC handed me recently in a string that had recededed into History; I don't think anyone except me (and Andy) saw it. I was griping about his insistence on "staying the course." With all of his "spreading democracy" and other American superiority complex rhetoric I was taken aback when he grounded himself a bit and presented practicality, because it is actually not terribly unlike practicality as seen by me (I'd add more direct humanitarian work) and, I suspect, Andy(?) (who as I recall would definitely use a strong UN presence to deemphasize the whole US thing) ... people who hate Bushism but still want to do what we can to help Iraq stand on it's own:

At 11:21 PM, little-cicero said...
This is what I think the course currently is that we ought to "stay":

Build infrastructure necessary for democracy: educational, government, law enforcement and municipal infrastructure.

Promote moderation in the Iraqi politick as well as secular government.

Develop the Iraqi Military and give them the equipment and training they need to face the al Quaeda threat.

Withdraw in increments according to progress- not time. By progress I mean Iraqi military progress- they get 100 troops, we pull out 500. Something like that. Timetables are idiotic and no different than withdrawal in that they invite opposition at the very moment that defense is let down.

Withdraw political influence when the Iraqi politick is at its stablest.

Resolve to avoid civil war by either loosening the nationalist bond or forcing unity.

One way to force unity is to take away the "legitimate" US target of al Quaeda by withdrawing when their military is capable, then allowing the entire nation of Iraq to unite against the singular enemy of al Quaeda which would then be targeting Iraq rather than the US.

This method allows Iraq to be powerful in its unity. A contributing factor would also be the capitalist market, which blurs theological lines amid commerce.

The course has many bumps- that is apparent, but there is only one logical course here, and it seems that the President, whether he was right or wrong in the past, is trying to abide by it. He is trying to force them into unity, and considering the inevitability of al Quaeda's eventual aggression, it is likely that it will materialize as such.


So amazing that we can get so caught up in flaming, when if we just sat down and said, "what should we plan to do today to improve the situation? tomorrow? the third day?," maybe we would discover we agree enough to be constructive.

Not that I agree with his cultural (he'd probably call them philosophical) assumptions. Were those Superiority assumptions absent from government grandstanding, at least half the wind would be taken out of the anti-Western forces' sails. (Speaking of flame wars!)

But still. Imagine a world without pointless partisan bickering, where things actually got done besides controlling "power."

"There is only us." Applies intra-nationally, too.

tully said...

It's hard to achieve clarity on this issue because both sides look so ridiculous to the other- sometimes I think the solution is to leave opinions out of it and just talk about solutions.

I truly want Andy to explain his solution to me. I think he wants what most Democrats want, which is a Timetable withdrawal- something which I consider no solution at all. This has to be a Progress-related withdrawal.

Andy said...

No, actually I agree with you. A calendar-oriented withdrawal is pointless; it needs to be something like, "When Objective A is accomplished, X troops can be withdrawn."

Two things: should the situation in Iraq clearly devolve into a full-scale civil war, at that point I say we just all get the hell out of there.

Thing the second: The Bush Administration has not ever given us an Objective A, let alone B, C, D, etc. What we get is, "When Iraqis stand up, we will stand down." While that is lovely rhetoric, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? In concrete terms, define "stand up" for me. When the Iraqis are able to quell the insurgency without US help? When the insurgency has ended? When it begins to steadily decline? When X-number of Iraqi troops are armed and trained? What?

As Bush showed in his recent press conference, he doesn't have a strategy, because he doesn't know what one is. He thinks a goal -- establishing democracy in Iraq -- IS a strategy. It's not even close.

tully said...

"When the Iraqis are able to quell the insurgency without US help? When the insurgency has ended? When it begins to steadily decline? When X-number of Iraqi troops are armed and trained? What?"

Of course it's the first one. When the Iraqis stand up has nothing to do with the insurgency- it has to do with Iraq's dealing with the insurgency. Your last line enables the first one- it is only when enough troops are present that Iraq can fight off an insurgency without US help, and it is only then that Iraq can stand up and we can stand down.

It's good to see where we agree- but I would like to see your solutions more often. If more and more Democrats started to offer such solutions which I believe are in accordance with the administrations', not only would the Democratic party seem stronger on terrorism, but there would be a breaking of the partisan walls and an enabling of serious, constructive discussion.

Anonymous said...

LC, I think you read a lot more intelligence into the Administration's "plan" than exists.

Observation: LC is complaining about the Democrats doing the same thing Andy is complaining about the Administration doing: blowing a lot of hot air with no substantial propositions. Seiously, look at those last two posts. Exactly the same complaint.

People on each side tend to assume that "their" politicos Of Course Actually _Mean_ [insert favored course of action here] ... but of course being a politician trains one to commit to nothing and to leave options open while making people think you are helping them effectively.

The Administration manages, every once in a while, to produce an actual practical goal (eg, the Voting, the Constitution Writing ... the Fall of Baghdad, for that matter)--and when they do they are pretty effective at making that goal happen. But most of what we hear (and clearly what we see in action ... er, in inaction) is idealistic speech with no practical application beyond, "Hey, US soldiers, try to survive, and, you know, try to kill those badguy guys with the guns-n-stuff ... when you think you might know who they are ... preferably, though, not when they're sleeping in their houses with their families ... yeah; good luck!"

LC, you seem to think that because (some) practical-application answers are obvious to you that the Admin knows, agrees, and is working on them.

Might be true.

But the rest of us sure aren't seeing the evidence for that. After this many years, we ought to. After this many years, a coherent plan OUGHT to exist. Civil War should NOT have been a surprise.

Trickish Knave said...

I agree with you Andy that there ahve been a lot of fucked up things carried out in God's name, and your anticipated "Bush sucks" rhetoric aside, you'll have to be more specific in the relevance of Muslims cutting people's heads off and GWB.

I started reading the Koran almost a year ago because of comments like yours. I doubt you have read nay, as most people, but that does not stop you from throwing criticisms around and defending a religion who's followers do nothing but perpetuate a relgion based on violence and death.

I hope that the exit strategy is not made public, not that it would make a difference to you, but all that would do is empower the extemists.

"Well, those are not the Muslims that we like. We like the ones that don't do that"."

Gino, while your friend may want to spread Islam by peaceful means, unfortunately, the extremists have a much broader translation.

Gino said...

Ticklish:
let me say it again:
islam is a very diverse faith, with no central authority to speak for it. islam, in short, is properly practiced according to the proper heart of the adherant.
and this term:"proper" is open to interpretation to anybody who seeks to be proper.


i think you been listening to too much pat robertson.
islam is not the enemy.
assholes are the enemy.

Andy said...

islam is not the enemy.
assholes are the enemy.


I am in agreement.

Trickish Knave said...

Ah, the old "you must be listening to..." debunmk.

Just because some of the followers of have been declawed (cat reference for Andy) of Islam's most vile practices doesn't mean everything is hunky-dorie. These are marginal players and most will not speak out against the radicals for fear of reprisals.

Islam's main mission is to perpetuate itself through 'conversion', then if that fails, a slice to the throat. Gino, I understand yo uhave a Muslim friend so it is hard for you to wrap your head around the fact that followers of his invented religion are admonished by Allah to spread the religion and kill the infidels who don't convert. You have an emotional attachment.

Your friend practices the Islam Lite version, as do many Muslims. There religion, hoever, does not tolerate any other religions in their presence. Go to a Muslim controlled country and put a Buddha on your dash board. The Muslim leader in Britain spoke out against Blair's new policy of not publicly cheering on the terrorist acts that happened in the subways and he did it anyway.

There ahs been a massive invasion of Muslims into Europe and it is no accident.

Fuck, I should just make a blog entry on my own site, I've been rambling on.

Any Muslim leader that gets up there and says Islam is a religion of peace is either an ignoramous or a flat out liar. I don't understand why the countries of the world roll over to them.

"Aww, they just decalared Jihad on us again, Mertle."

"Those whacky Muslims!"

Meanwhile, travel isn't safe, speaking your mind or drawing pictures is a death sentence, walking hte streets is no longer safe. Perhaps not in the U.S. but in other parts of the world this is true.

This is definately a clash of civilizations and a clash of 'us' and 'them', but some people just can't bring themselves to identify who the enemy is.

Concession is regarded as weakness by Muslims. But yet everyone keeps negotiating with these backwards ass people. San Franciscans had a rally to support Hezbollah for fuck sake. What's next, a rally for Kim Jong Il?

I'll let Winston Churchill finish up my thoughts:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

—Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

Trickish Knave said...

Because I can't just leave shit alone...


islam is not the enemy.
assholes are the enemy.


What's the difference?

Here is what the former leader of Malysia has to say about 'moderate Muslims':

"There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim," he said. "We are fundamentalists in Malaysia. We follow the true teachings of the religion and the true teachings do not teach us to bomb and kill people without reason."

Without reason. Got it.