Wednesday, November 03, 2004

The Debate will continue!!!

A fellow blogger, with whom I have agreed to disagree, writes the following:

"It is a shame that not everyone can see what is really going on [in Iraq]. The media and reporters know that images and success stories will not sell and that it is fashionable to hate America. So people whould believe that this is the "wrong war at the wrong time".

I do agree that we should have taken care of OBL before heading to Iraq but the war in Iraq was necessary on so many levels if not for ousting that despotic asshole then at least to give people over there a chance to live without fear from their own ruler who would rather see his people starve then to lift a finger to help them. Serioiusly, Andy, what do you think OBL's other motiviations are? Peace in the Middle East? Actually, it probably is and he will get peace, in his mind, when all the infidels are destroyed."

Well, I'll agree with you as far as the first period.

What do you think is really going on in Iraq? I'll tell you what I see. I see a tenuous "government" handpicked by an invading, occupying power that is looked upon by the Iraqi people with skepticism at best. I see the two figures with the largest command of Iraqi public opinion, Ayatollah al-Sistani and Moktada al-Sadr, marginalized by the U.S. government because of our fear of Islam. (Ironic, isn't it, that in the U.S. the separation between God and Government is being systematically dismantled by the same people whose greatest fear is a religious government in Iraq.)

I see us rushing to premature elections with U.S.-backed candidates who will be viewed, at best, by their compatriots with skepticism. Donald Rumsfeld thinks it's okay if Iraq is secure enough by January for most of Iraq to vote. Well, which regions of Iraq do you think won't be secure enough? It will be the places most suspicious of the U.S.-backed government and elections. If they are unable to participate in the process because of "security" reasons, they will not accept the results. Voila...civil war.

I see a nation that may have suffered as many as 100,000 civilian casualties, according to a recent academic study. I see a nation where basic infrastructure and services are still worse now than before the invasion. I see a "reconstruction" plan, budgeted at $18 billion, for which $1 billion has been spent, and a big chunk has been reappropriated for security.

I see an American military force that is overextended. The biggest scandal of the missing 380 tons of explosive is likely not the explosives themselves, but the fact that it is concrete proof that Bush didn't send enough troops to secure the country. I see Iraq with an endlessly self-generating supply of angry insurgents; their determination easily surpasses ours.

I see a terrorist organization which was not affiliated with al Qaeda before the invasion but has since sworn allegiance to bin Laden.

I don't buy that the present perception that Iraq isn't going so well has been manufactured by the media. In fact, I think Iraq is likely worse than we know. Someone please point to some achievements and successes in Iraq by this administration that have been overlooked by the media.

With my whole heart I believe it was an unjustified war of choice. Bush likes to make the argument that the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam in power. Show me some statistics to support that assertion. If the Iraqi people were so miserable, it was their responsibility to do something about it. I don't believe it's the proper role for the U.S. to go around determining the nature of governments in foreign countries. And in the 2000 election, Bush unequivocally agreed with me.

In all the campaign rhetoric, we lost sight of the fact that Saddam Hussein was always an asshole. Yet there's Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 shaking his hand. There's Ronald Reagan, the boss of the current president's father, selling weapons to Saddam for use against Iran, turning a blind eye to Hussein's documented use of illegal chemical weapons. If we want to blame the situation in Iraq on Saddam, it's only honest to back one step further and remember who put him there and made him as strong as he was.

So what is going on in Iraq right now? We toppled our own dictator and are in the process of starting an "election"

--- have to break here in the middle of writing this; 11:37 a.m. Eastern Time. Kerry has conceded. Speechless. --

Okay, breathing again.

As I was saying, we're in the process of setting up an election with U.S.-friendly candidates in Iraq. We have, as I pointed out earlier, marginalized the significant opposition. Now, it may well be that the administration's intentions here are utterly sincere; obviously having a pro-U.S. Iraqi government is more desirable than an unfriendly one. Maybe the candidates they're supporting really are the best ones. But you've got to examine this from the Arab perspective, and recall that we don't have a great track record doing this. It could easily appear that we are replacing one puppet with another, which is exactly what bin Laden is accusing us of. By the way, did I mention that we gave more than $117 million to the Taliban in 2001 alone? And did I mention that Hamid Karzai is a former Unocal consultant?

What do I seriously think Osama bin Laden's motivations are? Okay, I'll tell you. He wants the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, but probably at the cost of the destruction of Israel. He wants the current aristocratic government of Saudi Arabia overthrown and replaced by a Taliban-like theocracy, and he wants the U.S. military presence removed. Now that we've done him the enormous favor of overthrowing a man bin Laden called a "socialist infidel" in Iraq, he wants a theocracy there, too. In short, yes, he wants an Islamic revolution in the middle east.

To the conservatives who argue bin Laden is at war with the United States, I would like to ask: to what end? Do you think he thinks he can bring about the destruction of America and the subjugation of the American people? In fact, if you look at his most recent remarks, that doesn't seem to be his goal at all. He criticizes George Bush, mentions the Patriot Act specifically by name, and accuses the President of adopting the tactics of Arab tyrants in order to upend the basic order of our society and eliminate civil rights and protections.

So what do we do about bin Laden?

First of all, sad but true, I believe terrorism is a reality of life for America in the 21st century. It's important to remember terrorism is not a tactic employed only by radical Islamists. Oklahoma City, anyone?

Therefore, it's important to study terrorist threats and history and do our best to prevent an attack, both with security and intelligence measures. It's also important to be prepared, as such security measures frequently fail. See Israel. Cutting the budgets of fire departments in New York City is not a good way to be prepared for the next terrorist attack.

Secondly, take a good hard look at bin Laden's accusations. As Karl Rove can tell you, in politics what is "true" is quite relevant. In politics, what is "true" is what people believe. And in the middle east, we have millions upon millions of people who believe these perceptions of our nation. Can we fight this perception, true or not, with a bomb? With a hundred bombs? How many more invasions will it take before the Arabs greet their liberators with open arms, George?

When solid intelligence about terrorists and their locations comes in, strike. Republicans criticized Clinton for "lobbing missiles at tents and camels." Don't you wish now he'd lobbed a few more? Don't you wish that President Bush hadn't declined the recommendation to strike Zarqawi when he was located in Northern Iraq?

Here's how to defuse al Qaeda. Number one problem is Israel.

Let me say this categorically. Israel has the unquestionable right to exist and the unquestionable right to defend itself. I would wholeheartedly support any action necessary by the President of the United States to protect Israel.

I also believe that Palestine has the unquestionable right to exist and the right to defend itself, and the President ought to stand up for the Palestinians, too.

The neocons who thought the path to democracy began in Baghdad were deluded. It begins in Ramallah. Israel must draw back to the pre-1967 borders and respect them. Israel must stop retaliating for terror attacks with clumsy military operations. If you can pinpoint the car a blind, paraplegic sheikh is traveling in, you can stop the car, arrest the sheikh, bring him up before an internationally recognized court of law, present your evidence, and try him fairly. To dispatch a missile which deprives the accused not only of his right to defend himself in court but also of his life and the lives of innocents around him is barbaric. To bulldoze an apartment building and leave families homeless is barbaric. To shoot rock-throwing adolescents with high-powered precision rifles is barbaric. An American president needs to say so.

Establish a major program of energy conservation and subsidizing of alternative energy sources to reduce our dependence on oil from this part of the world. It's a finite resource, anyway, better to do this sooner or later. It's only a start, but you know what? It's a HELL of a lot better than what Bush has planned.


2 comments:

Trickish Knave said...

Hey Adam, you offer a lot to think about and I will attempt to answer your questions, although quite frankly I do not think it will do any good.

I see a tenuous "government" handpicked by an invading, occupying power that is looked upon by the Iraqi people with skepticism at best.

I would agree that it is skepticism but that doesn’t mean they don’t want it. They are skeptical because they have never known democracy. The people in Iraq don’t want a religious leader in charge either. They would like a moderate Islamic party. Source…Ayatollah al-Sistani and Moktada al-Sadr, marginalized by the U.S. government because of our fear of Islam.

I would have to disagree with you on this statement. These guys aren’t being marginalized. If anything else they have been brought forward and given a heavy weighting for the elections in Iraq. Support for al-Sadr dropped from 80% last April to 50% last June. Seems like the Iraqi’s are trying to make a statement, doesn’t it?

“I see us rushing to premature elections with U.S.-backed candidates who will be viewed, at best, by their compatriots with skepticism. Donald Rumsfeld thinks it's okay if Iraq is secure enough by January for most of Iraq to vote.

So when would be a good time to vote- When all the terrorists are subdued?

Well, which regions of Iraq do you think won't be secure enough? It will be the places most suspicious of the U.S.-backed government and elections. If they are unable to participate in the process because of "security" reasons, they will not accept the results. Voila...civil war.

I totally agree with you. It will be the people who are mostly suspicious of the U.S. backed elections- al-Queda, al-Sadr, loyal baathists, Islamic terrorists? And I would have to say that Iraq is already in a civil war. A war that divides the terrorists and the Iraqi citizens who want democracy and live in peace without the fear of a despotic ruler throwing them in a mass grave. I’ll touch more on this later.

I see a nation that may have suffered as many as 100,000 civilian casualties, according to a recent academic study.

I have read “studies” that show numbers lower than 100,000. These “civilians" also included an 11 year girl who was used as a human bomb. Kind of gives new meaning to the t-shirt “My kid blew up a squad of American Marines and all I got was this lousy t-shirt”. Compared with the 40 possible mass graves across Iraq with an estimated 300,000 bodies in them from Hussein’s 30 year rule, 100,000 dead “civilians” seems like a statistic the Kerry campaign should have jumped on.

I see a nation where basic infrastructure and services are still worse now than before the invasion.

I see it differently:
- 225 megawatt generator online privding more electricity than before the invasion. Most people in al_qudas were using portable generators.
- October’s production in the country has regularly exceeded 5,000 megawatts, compared to the pre-war level of 4,400. Since arriving last year, the Corps has strung 8,600 kilometers of transmission line, built over 1,200 towers and added over 1,800 megawatts to the grid. Source- Reconstruction of major water treatment plant, sewage trunk line, expected to provide work for more than 134 Iraqis Source- Iraq Stock Exchange : Iraq Central Bank to let five more banks operate; more Treasury bills on the way SourceThe source I used has many more examples. It will take time to overcome 30 years of damage an asshole dictator caused.

I see a "reconstruction" plan, budgeted at $18 billion, for which $1 billion has been spent, and a big chunk has been reappropriated for security.

To use the old cliché- “Freedom isn’t free”. I’m sure the Dems are up in arms about this because the money will have to come from the programs that keep people dependent jupon the government.

I see an American military force that is overextended.

That can be attributed to the “Do more with less” attitude of the Clinton administration. I have been riding submarines for 17 years and when my division went from 20-22 sonarmen to 9-12 believe me I felt overextended. Enlistments and recruitments are on the rise though. Check out the navy recruiting site for the figures; I would do it myself but I am on leave waiting to go to my last submarine before retirement and I make it a habit not to think about work when on leave.

The biggest scandal of the missing 380 tons of explosive is likely not the explosives themselves, but the fact that it is concrete proof that Bush didn't send enough troops to secure the country.

Ah yes, the October Surprise seized by Kerry as the melting point for Bush’s reelection. From the Dudge Report, which cited numerous sources:
NBCNEWS reported: The 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives were already missing back in April 10, 2003 -- when U.S. troops arrived at the installation south of Baghdad!

An NBCNEWS crew embedded with troops moved in to secure the Al-Qaqaa weapons facility on April 10, 2003, one day after the liberation of Iraq.

According to NBCNEWS, the HMX and RDX explosives were already missing when the American troops arrived.

I see Iraq with an endlessly self-generating supply of angry insurgents; their determination easily surpasses ours.

True, there are a lot of insurgents most of whom have come from outside Iraq. But do not underestimate our Armed Forces determination. Just because we do not cut the heads off our prisoners (although we do strip them down and make them bark like dogs), use children as human bombs, or easily and willingly die for 72 virgins in the afterlife doesn’t mean we aren’t determined. I would love for you to come out here to Hawaii and let me give you a tour of my submarine to show you some hardcore determination.

I see a terrorist organization which was not affiliated with al Qaeda before the invasion but has since sworn allegiance to bin Laden.

Strength in numbers, man, that’s all it is. Just because they are aligned with bin Laden doesn’t mean they weren’t killing people just the same. Now they are all under one sick umbrella. That’s fine with me. It makes them easier to find and scatter their body parts with a nice tomahawk. The major difference is that there won’t be a human body attached to it when it explodes.

I don't buy that the present perception that Iraq isn't going so well has been manufactured by the media. In fact, I think Iraq is likely worse than we know. Someone please point to some achievements and successes in Iraq by this administration that have been overlooked by the media.

I’m sure there are reporters that do the humanitarian stories because there are pictures that get leaked out to us with soldiers and Iraqi citizens but they certainly do not make headline news. Even you, Adam, would have to agree with this. Besides the achievements listed above in the infrastructure I think there are some better, more hard-hitting achievements. I couldn’t have stated this any better so I “borrowed” this excerpt:

“The two countries Bush 'attacked and took over' were two of the most vile, repressive, un-'progressive' societies this world has ever seen. The Taliban: where women were slaves, people grew opium to survive, and anyone who dared to not be Muslim was executed. Iraq, a totalitarian fascist state, run for decades by the socialist Baath party, a coterie of criminals who tortured and enslaved their people with impunity. Saddam’s henchmen would rape newlywed women, monopolized all the oil wealth for themselves to live lavish lifestyles while their people starved, and there is not a family unscathed by the unimaginable hell of dungeons and torture chambers.” Source Maybe these successes aren’t measured in numbers or in qualitative data but I think they are worth far more than their weight in gold.

I don't believe it's the proper role for the U.S. to go around determining the nature of governments in foreign countries. And in the 2000 election, Bush unequivocally agreed with me.

Adam, even you said September 11th changed you. Couldn’t it have changed the President also? I don’t look at it as forcing a government on people. It took Germany many years to finally have its own elections. We cannot afford to wait that long in Iraq. There is more at stake and more to lose if we don’t get some stability in their fast. We are facilitating the kind of government the Iraqi people want sans the Ayatollah’s, Mullah’s, and insurgents that want to keep Iraq enslaved and in the Dark Ages.

Yet there's Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 shaking his hand.

And after doing so asked the asshole to refrain from using chemical weapons. Nobody ever made a big deal when Arafat and Clinton shook hands in 1993 despite the fact Arafat killed 240+ marines in Beirut in 1973.

There's Ronald Reagan, the boss of the current president's father, selling weapons to Saddam for use against Iran, turning a blind eye to Hussein's documented use of illegal chemical weapons. If we want to blame the situation in Iraq on Saddam, it's only honest to back one step further and remember who put him there and made him as strong as he was.

I would have to agree that in our efforts to put someone in place to keep Iran at bay we made a 20/20 hindsight mistake by backing Hussein. But it was the lesser of two evils back then. Where were all the protesters then? It does no good to play the blame game because it can go back as far as you want it to. Why didn’t Clinton take OBL’s head when Jordan offered it him on a silver platter AFTER it was learned that he was responsible for the first attack on the WTC? Every administration had its faults.

By the way, did I mention that we gave more than $117 million to the Taliban in 2001 alone?

“Gave” as in we sent that money to Afghanistan for food and medicine then the Taliban “took” it? Or maybe “gave” as in the Oil For Food program the European countries supported.

What do I seriously think Osama bin Laden's motivations are? Okay, I'll tell you. He wants the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, but probably at the cost of the destruction of Israel. He wants the current aristocratic government of Saudi Arabia overthrown and replaced by a Taliban-like theocracy, and he wants the U.S. military presence removed. Now that we've done him the enormous favor of overthrowing a man bin Laden called a "socialist infidel" in Iraq, he wants a theocracy there, too. In short, yes, he wants an Islamic revolution in the middle east.

And you’re OK with this? I don’t think having the whole Middle East under a theocracy is in the best interest of those people. Every country under that type of rule in the ME has been in shambles over the last few centuries. The rich live in comfort and the rest of the people eat shit sandwiches and live in squalor. The countries are representative of the Dark Ages where technology, art, and commerce are at a standstill except for rulers of the country.

I will categorize the next few remarks as they are scattered about in your post:

So what do we do about bin Laden?
1) it's important to study terrorist threats and history and do our best to prevent an attack, both with security and intelligence measures. It's also important to be prepared, as such security measures frequently fail

So be prepared for his attacks by using reliable intelligence? I agree.

2) Secondly, take a good hard look at bin Laden's accusations. As Karl Rove can tell you, in politics what is "true" is quite relevant. In politics, what is "true" is what people believe. And in the middle east, we have millions upon millions of people who believe these perceptions of our nation. Can we fight this perception, true or not, with a bomb? With a hundred bombs? How many more invasions will it take before the Arabs greet their liberators with open arms, George?

Fight the perception the ME people have with our country? This doesn’t sound like a plan to take of OBL. This sounds like a Kerry concept of making sure our world neighbors really “like” us.

Republicans criticized Clinton for "lobbing missiles at tents and camels." Don't you wish now he'd lobbed a few more?

Absolutely! Too bad Clinton only bombed someone when he was getting his dick sucked by fat interns and needed something to take America’s spotlight off of it. By the way, where were all the protests when Clinton was bombing the camels and tents? I guess if a Democrat goes to war it is ok?

Don't you wish that President Bush hadn't declined the recommendation to strike Zarqawi when he was located in Northern Iraq?

Dammit. There was more to it than that and anyone with access to the Sewcret message boards would know the reason. I don’t say this as a cop out but because there is more to the story than just “Hey he’s over here! Drop a bomb here!”. I can say that if we would have bombed him when we had the chance the liberals woulde have been rejoicing because there would have been a bigger civillian body count for them to use against Bush.

Here's how to defuse al Qaeda. Number one problem is Israel.

I was wondering if you were going to touch on this. Why is the left so down on Israel? Is it because Israel represents an “outpost of colonialism” (said with a ghostly voice inflecting up and down). Is it because they are the only bastion of democracy surrounded by Arab nations that wish to keep their own countries in a state of chaos? Again I must use an excerpt from a website I frequent not because I could not come up with my own commentary but because it resonates so perfectly my thoughts on Israel and the Middle East. Source Here it is:

“Now, do you think these type of people want to destroy us because we're bad, or do they want to destroy us because we're good. This is the fundamental question that determines how we deal with the threat we face.

Our one advantage is that evil is impotent on its own. The world works by an amazing principle, the more people embrace freedom and morality, the stronger they are. Israel can hold its own against enemies a hundred times her size, population, and natural resources, because Israel is free and her enemies are not. Taiwan is a small island rock, yet because they have embraced that most rare and precious of resources, liberty, they have a per-capita income almost equal to the U.S. and are therefore an ideological thorn in the sides of the gangsters that run mainland China. And most of all, the United States of America, despite being only 5% of the world's population, and we are powerful because we are good, because we are just, because of our principles. Right makes Might.

The Muslim world could decide tomorrow to stop the war against the West. The Arabs have six million square miles of land with an ocean of oil beneath it. They have their two holiest cities, Mecca and Medina. They could give their Palestinian brothers a state tomorrow (in addition to Jordan, which is 70% Palestinian), give every one of them a bar of gold and beach front property in the Sinai, or vast tracts of land in the Fertile Crescent that would dwarf the West Bank and Gaza. Between the Arabs' oil wealth and Israel's scientific skill, the entire Middle East could be a thriving hub of culture, commerce, and life, not death. My God, how the desert would bloom.

This could happen tomorrow, but it won't. The tragic unfortunate fact is that the Muslim world is massively insecure, and they over-compensate for this insecurity by lashing out with bellicosity. It's simply easier to hate than to think. It's easier to embrace the dark side than to see the light.”

To shoot rock-throwing adolescents with high-powered precision rifles is barbaric. An American president needs to say so.
So you on one hand you say it is wrong for the United States to tell a country what to do but then on the other hand you say that our president should say something to Israel about their actions? Which is it? Should the president also tell Arafat to stop using and calling for children to be suicide bombers also?

I must say that this was extremely draining for me. This took 7 Word pages. I have never spent this much time on anything this heavy in politics and the only other closest thing I can think of in any written word would be the 60-page paper I wrote for my Master’s class on personality types. Again, thank you, Andy, for some stimulating conversation.

Trickish Knave said...

Hey Adam, you offer a lot to think about and I will attempt to answer your questions, although quite frankly I do not think it will do any good.

I see a tenuous "government" handpicked by an invading, occupying power that is looked upon by the Iraqi people with skepticism at best.I would agree that it is skepticism but that doesn’t mean they don’t want it. They are skeptical because they have never known democracy. The people in Iraq don’t want a religious leader in charge either. They would like a moderate Islamic party. Source…Ayatollah al-Sistani and Moktada al-Sadr, marginalized by the U.S. government because of our fear of Islam.I would have to disagree with you on this statement. These guys aren’t being marginalized. If anything else they have been brought forward and given a heavy weighting for the elections in Iraq. Support for al-Sadr dropped from 80% last April to 50% last June. Seems like the Iraqi’s are trying to make a statement, doesn’t it?

“I see us rushing to premature elections with U.S.-backed candidates who will be viewed, at best, by their compatriots with skepticism. Donald Rumsfeld thinks it's okay if Iraq is secure enough by January for most of Iraq to vote.So when would be a good time to vote- When all the terrorists are subdued?

Well, which regions of Iraq do you think won't be secure enough? It will be the places most suspicious of the U.S.-backed government and elections. If they are unable to participate in the process because of "security" reasons, they will not accept the results. Voila...civil war.I totally agree with you. It will be the people who are mostly suspicious of the U.S. backed elections- al-Queda, al-Sadr, loyal baathists, Islamic terrorists? And I would have to say that Iraq is already in a civil war. A war that divides the terrorists and the Iraqi citizens who want democracy and live in peace without the fear of a despotic ruler throwing them in a mass grave. I’ll touch more on this later.

I see a nation that may have suffered as many as 100,000 civilian casualties, according to a recent academic study. I have read “studies” that show numbers lower than 100,000. These “civilians" also included an 11 year girl who was used as a human bomb. Kind of gives new meaning to the t-shirt “My kid blew up a squad of American Marines and all I got was this lousy t-shirt”. Compared with the 40 possible mass gravesacross Iraq with an estimated 300,000 bodies in them from Hussein’s 30 year rule, 100,000 dead “civilians” seems like a statistic the Kerry campaign should have jumped on. By the way, that last source was the BBC, a media giant in the UK who loves to hate the president.

I see a nation where basic infrastructure and services are still worse now than before the invasion.I see it differently:
- 225 megawatt generator online privding more electricity than before the invasion. Most people in al_qudas were using portable generators.
- October’s production in the country has regularly exceeded 5,000 megawatts, compared to the pre-war level of 4,400. Since arriving last year, the Corps has strung 8,600 kilometers of transmission line, built over 1,200 towers and added over 1,800 megawatts to the grid. Source- Reconstruction of major water treatment plant, sewage trunk line, expected to provide work for more than 134 Iraqis Source- Iraq Stock Exchange : Iraq Central Bank to let five more banks operate; more Treasury bills on the way SourceThe source I used has many more examples. It will take time to overcome 30 years of damage an asshole dictator caused.

I see a "reconstruction" plan, budgeted at $18 billion, for which $1 billion has been spent, and a big chunk has been reappropriated for security.To use the old cliché- “Freedom isn’t free”. I’m sure the Dems are up in arms about this because the money will have to come from the programs that keep people dependent jupon the government.

I see an American military force that is overextended.That can be attributed to the “Do more with less” attitude of the Clinton administration. I have been riding submarines for 17 years and when my division went from 20-22 sonarmen to 9-12 believe me I felt overextended. Enlistments and recruitments are on the rise though. Check out the navy recruiting site for the figures; I would do it myself but I am on leave waiting to go to my last submarine before retirement and I make it a habit not to think about work when on leave.

The biggest scandal of the missing 380 tons of explosive is likely not the explosives themselves, but the fact that it is concrete proof that Bush didn't send enough troops to secure the country. Ah yes, the October Surprise seized by Kerry as the melting point for Bush’s reelection. From the Dudge Report, which cited numerous sources:
NBCNEWS reported: The 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives were already missing back in April 10, 2003 -- when U.S. troops arrived at the installation south of Baghdad!

An NBCNEWS crew embedded with troops moved in to secure the Al-Qaqaa weapons facility on April 10, 2003, one day after the liberation of Iraq.

According to NBCNEWS, the HMX and RDX explosives were already missing when the American troops arrived.
I see Iraq with an endlessly self-generating supply of angry insurgents; their determination easily surpasses ours.True, there are a lot of insurgents most of whom have come from outside Iraq. But do not underestimate our Armed Forces determination. Just because we do not cut the heads off our prisoners (although we do strip them down and make them bark like dogs), use children as human bombs, or easily and willingly die for 72 virgins in the afterlife doesn’t mean we aren’t determined. I would love for you to come out here to Hawaii and let me give you a tour of my submarine to show you some hardcore determination.

I see a terrorist organization which was not affiliated with al Qaeda before the invasion but has since sworn allegiance to bin Laden.Strength in numbers, man, that’s all it is. Just because they are aligned with bin Laden doesn’t mean they weren’t killing people just the same. Now they are all under one sick umbrella. That’s fine with me. It makes them easier to find and scatter their body parts with a nice tomahawk. The major difference is that there won’t be a human body attached to it when it explodes.

I don't buy that the present perception that Iraq isn't going so well has been manufactured by the media. In fact, I think Iraq is likely worse than we know. Someone please point to some achievements and successes in Iraq by this administration that have been overlooked by the media.I’m sure there are reporters that do the humanitarian stories because there are pictures that get leaked out to us with soldiers and Iraqi citizens but they certainly do not make headline news. Even you, Adam, would have to agree with this. Besides the achievements listed above in the infrastructure I think there are some better, more hard-hitting achievements. I couldn’t have stated this any better so I “borrowed” this excerpt:

“The two countries Bush 'attacked and took over' were two of the most vile, repressive, un-'progressive' societies this world has ever seen. The Taliban: where women were slaves, people grew opium to survive, and anyone who dared to not be Muslim was executed. Iraq, a totalitarian fascist state, run for decades by the socialist Baath party, a coterie of criminals who tortured and enslaved their people with impunity. Saddam’s henchmen would rape newlywed women, monopolized all the oil wealth for themselves to live lavish lifestyles while their people starved, and there is not a family unscathed by the unimaginable hell of dungeons and torture chambers.” Source Maybe these successes aren’t measured in numbers or in qualitative data but I think they are worth far more than their weight in gold.

I don't believe it's the proper role for the U.S. to go around determining the nature of governments in foreign countries. And in the 2000 election, Bush unequivocally agreed with me.Adam, even you said September 11th changed you. Couldn’t it have changed the President also? I don’t look at it as forcing a government on people. It took Germany many years to finally have its own elections. We cannot afford to wait that long in Iraq. There is more at stake and more to lose if we don’t get some stability in their fast. We are facilitating the kind of government the Iraqi people want sans the Ayatollah’s, Mullah’s, and insurgents that want to keep Iraq enslaved and in the Dark Ages.

Yet there's Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 shaking his hand.And after doing so asked the asshole to refrain from using chemical weapons. Nobody ever made a big deal when Arafat and Clinton shook hands in 1993 despite the fact Arafat killed 240+ marines in Beirut in 1973.

There's Ronald Reagan, the boss of the current president's father, selling weapons to Saddam for use against Iran, turning a blind eye to Hussein's documented use of illegal chemical weapons. If we want to blame the situation in Iraq on Saddam, it's only honest to back one step further and remember who put him there and made him as strong as he was.I would have to agree that in our efforts to put someone in place to keep Iran at bay we made a 20/20 hindsight mistake by backing Hussein. But it was the lesser of two evils back then. Where were all the protesters then? It does no good to play the blame game because it can go back as far as you want it to. Why didn’t Clinton take OBL’s head when Jordan offered it him on a silver platter AFTER it was learned that he was responsible for the first attack on the WTC? Every administration had its faults.

By the way, did I mention that we gave more than $117 million to the Taliban in 2001 alone? “Gave” as in we sent that money to Afghanistan for food and medicine then the Taliban “took” it? Or maybe “gave” as in the Oil For Food program the European countries supported.

What do I seriously think Osama bin Laden's motivations are? Okay, I'll tell you. He wants the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, but probably at the cost of the destruction of Israel. He wants the current aristocratic government of Saudi Arabia overthrown and replaced by a Taliban-like theocracy, and he wants the U.S. military presence removed. Now that we've done him the enormous favor of overthrowing a man bin Laden called a "socialist infidel" in Iraq, he wants a theocracy there, too. In short, yes, he wants an Islamic revolution in the middle east.And you’re OK with this? I don’t think having the whole Middle East under a theocracy is in the best interest of those people. Every country under that type of rule in the ME has been in shambles over the last few centuries. The rich live in comfort and the rest of the people eat shit sandwiches and live in squalor. The countries are representative of the Dark Ages where technology, art, and commerce are at a standstill except for rulers of the country.

I will categorize the next few remarks as they are scattered about in your post:

So what do we do about bin Laden?
1) it's important to study terrorist threats and history and do our best to prevent an attack, both with security and intelligence measures. It's also important to be prepared, as such security measures frequently fail
So be prepared for his attacks by using reliable intelligence? I agree.

2) Secondly, take a good hard look at bin Laden's accusations. As Karl Rove can tell you, in politics what is "true" is quite relevant. In politics, what is "true" is what people believe. And in the middle east, we have millions upon millions of people who believe these perceptions of our nation. Can we fight this perception, true or not, with a bomb? With a hundred bombs? How many more invasions will it take before the Arabs greet their liberators with open arms, George?
Fight the perception the ME people have with our country? This doesn’t sound like a plan to take of OBL. This sounds like a Kerry concept of making sure our world neighbors really “like” us.

Republicans criticized Clinton for "lobbing missiles at tents and camels." Don't you wish now he'd lobbed a few more?Absolutely! Too bad Clinton only bombed someone when he was getting his dick sucked by fat interns and needed something to take America’s spotlight off of it. By the way, where were all the protests when Clinton was bombing the camels and tents? I guess if a Democrat goes to war it is ok?

Don't you wish that President Bush hadn't declined the recommendation to strike Zarqawi when he was located in Northern Iraq?Dammit. There was more to it than that and anyone with access to the Secret message boards would know the reason. I don’t say this as a cop out but because there is more to the story than just “Hey he’s over here! Drop a bomb here!”. I can say that if we would have bombed him when we had the chance the liberals woulde have been rejoicing because there would have been a bigger civillian body count for them to use against Bush.

Here's how to defuse al Qaeda. Number one problem is Israel.I was wondering if you were going to touch on this. Why is the left so down on Israel? Is it because Israel represents an “outpost of colonialism” (said with a ghostly voice inflecting up and down). Is it because they are the only bastion of democracy surrounded by Arab nations that wish to keep their own countries in a state of chaos? Again I must use an excerpt from a website I frequent not because I could not come up with my own commentary but because it resonates so perfectly my thoughts on Israel and the Middle East. Source Here it is:

“Now, do you think these type of people want to destroy us because we're bad, or do they want to destroy us because we're good. This is the fundamental question that determines how we deal with the threat we face.

Our one advantage is that evil is impotent on its own. The world works by an amazing principle, the more people embrace freedom and morality, the stronger they are. Israel can hold its own against enemies a hundred times her size, population, and natural resources, because Israel is free and her enemies are not. Taiwan is a small island rock, yet because they have embraced that most rare and precious of resources, liberty, they have a per-capita income almost equal to the U.S. and are therefore an ideological thorn in the sides of the gangsters that run mainland China. And most of all, the United States of America, despite being only 5% of the world's population, and we are powerful because we are good, because we are just, because of our principles. Right makes Might.

The Muslim world could decide tomorrow to stop the war against the West. The Arabs have six million square miles of land with an ocean of oil beneath it. They have their two holiest cities, Mecca and Medina. They could give their Palestinian brothers a state tomorrow (in addition to Jordan, which is 70% Palestinian), give every one of them a bar of gold and beach front property in the Sinai, or vast tracts of land in the Fertile Crescent that would dwarf the West Bank and Gaza. Between the Arabs' oil wealth and Israel's scientific skill, the entire Middle East could be a thriving hub of culture, commerce, and life, not death. My God, how the desert would bloom.

This could happen tomorrow, but it won't. The tragic unfortunate fact is that the Muslim world is massively insecure, and they over-compensate for this insecurity by lashing out with bellicosity. It's simply easier to hate than to think. It's easier to embrace the dark side than to see the light.”
To shoot rock-throwing adolescents with high-powered precision rifles is barbaric. An American president needs to say so.So you on one hand you say it is wrong for the United States to tell a country what to do but then on the other hand you say that our president should say something to Israel about their actions? Which is it? Should the president also tell Arafat to stop using and calling for children to be suicide bombers also?

I must say that this was extremely draining for me. I have never spent this much time on anything this heavy in politics and the only other thing I can think of in any written word would be the 60-page paper I wrote for my Master’s class on personality types. Again, thank you, Andy, for some stimulating conversation.